Thursday, July 27, 2006
Anonymous 12:57 PM
Today I decided to repost a comment by an anonymous blogger, along with my response. Please treat Anon 12:57 with some respect. I may not agree with Anon, but some of what Anon says balances out some of the anger many of us feel at the situation in Lebanon, and it has been said intelligently and without personal attacks.
Would I do nothing if my community was under attack? First, I don't know exactly what I would do, but I hope that I wouldn't start indiscriminantly killing people, because they happen to be in the same area as those responsible.
Second, ask some Lebanese, who weren't Hezbollah that.
If you check some of my previous posts, you will find that I believe Hezbolla is to blame as much as Israel. The difference is that Hezbollah's work of luring Israel into genocide (check the UN definition) is over and there is nothing that can be done to change their evil actions; Israel still seems intent on destroying the lives of innocent people, so there is still hope, however small, that pressure from American citizens, and others, will cause governmental action to stop this murder spree.
I hope that all those in Hezbollah pay for their crimes. Not only have they murdered some people, but they knew that their actions would result in something like this, how can anyone who knows Israel doubt the ruthlessness of their retaliation; but that does not make it okay to kill everyone else who lives in the same city or country, or building. NO!
As for Lebanon helping to hide Hezbollah, do you know how weak the government in Lebanon is? Lebanon is made up of several factions, none of which can agree to do anything with any other for more than a few days. I seriously doubt that they could agree to that. But, if what you are talking about is Lebanon not disarming Hezbollah, their army has not been strong enough to disarm Hezbollah in this century, let alone since Hezbollah started hiding there.
"But then, this is a "holy war" for Islam. Who better to put in harm's way than a country so highly populated with Infidel Christians? Two birds with one rocket, so to speak." Does that make it a good thing that Israel fell into the trap set by Syria and Iran? I don't see how that is a good thing.
"Islam seems intent on destroying everyone in the world but themselves." Assuming that you are talking about primarily Islamic governments, that statement is wrong for two reasons: 1. There is, and has been since British colonialization, more attempts or plans by Islamic leaders to take over the countries of other leaders than there has to take over any non-Islamic country, except Israel. And you should note here that plans for the destruction of Israel are usually only talk, with very little action. 2. Read The War for Palestine, written primarily by Jewish scholars, by the way: most of the traditionally Islamic nations' leaders know that they need Israel as an enemy so that they can use anti-Israeli propaganda (and sometimes truth) to keep their countries together and for intra-islamic wars. The ways in which this have been done are actually quite ingenious.
"We just hear what the media wants us to hear, anyway.": Close, but not quite. I'm listening to the many Lebanese bloggers who have been striving for peace and friendship with Israelis before this happened. I've been reading their blogs for six monthes or so, and they were always arguing with people who were anti-Israeli. Of course, now they aren't supporting Israel; I have to admit that I would have dropped the bomb on Afganistan after 911. At least most of them aren't trying to increase the violence, though they don't want to see their country in ruins either. So, no, I'm not listening to the media, though I'm not saying that I don't watch and I'm not deaf enough to miss them calling ALL the people being killed Hezbollah, even though that would be ridiculous, considering that entire city blocks are being wiped out.
"[T]here is a reason behind it." I agree, there is a reason. But that reason does not excuse the murder of so many innocent people. I've said it before, and I'll say it 'till I'm blue in the face, Israel claims to have the best assasins, in the best intelligence network in the world, why didn't they send out snipers and assasins to take out Hezbollah? They could have, but they don't care about Lebanese casualties, so they send in the bombs.
"The fighting going on now in Lebanon is horrible; all war is horrible. But there is a reason behind it, and unless we allow ourselves to remove our blinders and see that, how are we to gain wisdom? How are we to know how to take care of things in our own neighborhoods? How are we to learn how to make honest judgments during the rest of our lives?"
I hope that we don't learn that lesson; if someone kills some people in your neighborhood, I would hope that you would not retaliate by wiping everyone in their neighborhood out.
Finally, you've called what I've been saying one-sided, that's true enough, at least for a few posts. Let me explain, I am siding with the innocent. I'm not siding with Hezbollah and I'm not siding with Israel, but I am siding with the people in Lebanon who did nothing wrong and yet are being killed and starved and are watching their children die for crimes someone else commited.
Again, I think many of the things that you mentioned are valid and that we need to hear them, but I think that none of them excuse the way in which this retaliation is being carried out.
Pray for the innocent.
Anonymous said...Anon 12:57, I agree with many of your points, and I don't want to say that Israel is wrong to pursue some kind of justice here. Actually, I fully support going after HEZBOLLAH, what I cannot support, what I cannot imagine being able to support, is the indiscriminate killing that Israel has undertaken here. Treating Lebanon as if the whole country had declared war on them rather than pursuing the terrorist organization that did attack them in no way represents justice.You're right. There is no morality in government; there's no integrity, either.
But would you sit on your hands if your neighborhood was constantly being attacked, innocents killed along with the "enemy," which in this case is you?
Israel has a modern history, too.
Anyone who attacks them must have a death wish.
The horrific part in this case is that the Hezbollah was allowed to hide behind Lebanon's skirts in the first place.
But then, this is a "holy war" for Islam. Who better to put in harm's way than a country so highly populated with Infidel Christians? Two birds with one rocket, so to speak.
Islam seems intent on destroying everyone in the world but themselves. I wouldn't let them take pot shots at my family and friends; I'd be more intent on showing Islam that they're not going to succeed, at least not in my neighbohood.
Nobody has all the answers. We just hear what the media wants us to hear, anyway.
That's why I'm anonymous. I don't have all the answers, and I'm not out to alienate friends.
But such one-sided arguments sound like the media itself, villifying one side with a huff of moral judgement. And by pointing out America's part in making the weapons, it makes us feel good because we get a thrill of false humilty, proclaiming ourselves to be above the immorality of our own government.
It's easy to take the side of one factor and find nothing but evil in the other.
It is far more difficult to seek the truth in both sides, and to try to understand the personal part of the war on the other side, too.
Innocent people die on both sides. Innocent people die from starvation in other places. Innocent people die in the United States of accidents, of disease, of senseless violence.
The fighting going on now in Lebanon is horrible; all war is horrible. But there is a reason behind it, and unless we allow ourselves to remove our blinders and see that, how are we to gain wisdom? How are we to know how to take care of things in our own neighborhoods? How are we to learn how to make honest judgments during the rest of our lives?
Let us continue to pray without ceasing, and ask for wisdom for those who can make a difference there.
God go with you.
Would I do nothing if my community was under attack? First, I don't know exactly what I would do, but I hope that I wouldn't start indiscriminantly killing people, because they happen to be in the same area as those responsible.
Second, ask some Lebanese, who weren't Hezbollah that.
If you check some of my previous posts, you will find that I believe Hezbolla is to blame as much as Israel. The difference is that Hezbollah's work of luring Israel into genocide (check the UN definition) is over and there is nothing that can be done to change their evil actions; Israel still seems intent on destroying the lives of innocent people, so there is still hope, however small, that pressure from American citizens, and others, will cause governmental action to stop this murder spree.
I hope that all those in Hezbollah pay for their crimes. Not only have they murdered some people, but they knew that their actions would result in something like this, how can anyone who knows Israel doubt the ruthlessness of their retaliation; but that does not make it okay to kill everyone else who lives in the same city or country, or building. NO!
As for Lebanon helping to hide Hezbollah, do you know how weak the government in Lebanon is? Lebanon is made up of several factions, none of which can agree to do anything with any other for more than a few days. I seriously doubt that they could agree to that. But, if what you are talking about is Lebanon not disarming Hezbollah, their army has not been strong enough to disarm Hezbollah in this century, let alone since Hezbollah started hiding there.
"But then, this is a "holy war" for Islam. Who better to put in harm's way than a country so highly populated with Infidel Christians? Two birds with one rocket, so to speak." Does that make it a good thing that Israel fell into the trap set by Syria and Iran? I don't see how that is a good thing.
"Islam seems intent on destroying everyone in the world but themselves." Assuming that you are talking about primarily Islamic governments, that statement is wrong for two reasons: 1. There is, and has been since British colonialization, more attempts or plans by Islamic leaders to take over the countries of other leaders than there has to take over any non-Islamic country, except Israel. And you should note here that plans for the destruction of Israel are usually only talk, with very little action. 2. Read The War for Palestine, written primarily by Jewish scholars, by the way: most of the traditionally Islamic nations' leaders know that they need Israel as an enemy so that they can use anti-Israeli propaganda (and sometimes truth) to keep their countries together and for intra-islamic wars. The ways in which this have been done are actually quite ingenious.
"We just hear what the media wants us to hear, anyway.": Close, but not quite. I'm listening to the many Lebanese bloggers who have been striving for peace and friendship with Israelis before this happened. I've been reading their blogs for six monthes or so, and they were always arguing with people who were anti-Israeli. Of course, now they aren't supporting Israel; I have to admit that I would have dropped the bomb on Afganistan after 911. At least most of them aren't trying to increase the violence, though they don't want to see their country in ruins either. So, no, I'm not listening to the media, though I'm not saying that I don't watch and I'm not deaf enough to miss them calling ALL the people being killed Hezbollah, even though that would be ridiculous, considering that entire city blocks are being wiped out.
"[T]here is a reason behind it." I agree, there is a reason. But that reason does not excuse the murder of so many innocent people. I've said it before, and I'll say it 'till I'm blue in the face, Israel claims to have the best assasins, in the best intelligence network in the world, why didn't they send out snipers and assasins to take out Hezbollah? They could have, but they don't care about Lebanese casualties, so they send in the bombs.
"The fighting going on now in Lebanon is horrible; all war is horrible. But there is a reason behind it, and unless we allow ourselves to remove our blinders and see that, how are we to gain wisdom? How are we to know how to take care of things in our own neighborhoods? How are we to learn how to make honest judgments during the rest of our lives?"
I hope that we don't learn that lesson; if someone kills some people in your neighborhood, I would hope that you would not retaliate by wiping everyone in their neighborhood out.
Finally, you've called what I've been saying one-sided, that's true enough, at least for a few posts. Let me explain, I am siding with the innocent. I'm not siding with Hezbollah and I'm not siding with Israel, but I am siding with the people in Lebanon who did nothing wrong and yet are being killed and starved and are watching their children die for crimes someone else commited.
Again, I think many of the things that you mentioned are valid and that we need to hear them, but I think that none of them excuse the way in which this retaliation is being carried out.
Pray for the innocent.
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Gina and I were talking and she let me know that I hadn't made something clear. In my posts I haven't told you all my reasons for being so one-sided, I've given a few, but not some of the most important: I am skewing my comments toward Lebanon because the only side I've been hearing on the news is the American/Israeli side, and I assume that is what you've been hearing too.
No, your assumption is not correct. On the news I hear how horrible it is that Israel has killed innocent people. Twice I heard them say that Hezbollah was sending rockets into Israel, but there's never anything substantial to say WHY Israel struck.
And the media has been quite successful in making people believe that Israel Has been indiscrinately going after everyone in Lebanon.
I had a very long comment to you that took me most of the day, but trying to preview it froze my computer. Lovely.
Instead, I'll be back later with some facts you are apparently unfamiliar with.
Sorry for the delay; this time I will make it shorter.
Before I go, one question. What makes you think Israel is retaliating against every person in Lebanon? I am wondering where you investigated that, or if you did. Or is your contention based upon your anger that innocents are dying? Sorry. I said one but it turned out to be two.
Check you later.
Anon
And the media has been quite successful in making people believe that Israel Has been indiscrinately going after everyone in Lebanon.
I had a very long comment to you that took me most of the day, but trying to preview it froze my computer. Lovely.
Instead, I'll be back later with some facts you are apparently unfamiliar with.
Sorry for the delay; this time I will make it shorter.
Before I go, one question. What makes you think Israel is retaliating against every person in Lebanon? I am wondering where you investigated that, or if you did. Or is your contention based upon your anger that innocents are dying? Sorry. I said one but it turned out to be two.
Check you later.
Anon
# posted by 
: 7/28/2006 10:21 PM
: 7/28/2006 10:21 PM
I don't know which channel you've been watching, I've mostly been watching CNN and HNN and the local news. The news that I've heard makes the origin of the war either the kidnapping of the soldiers or by-passes it altogether to focus on the rocket attacks.
I don't know how anyone can make the claim that Israel is not going after everyone, at least in Beirut, as the so-called strateigic attacks first destroyed the ability of the ordinary citizens their to flee (airport/ roads/ transportation systems)and then targeted entire neighborhoods, and then I hear from BBC that Haim Ramon is saying that everyone left is Hezbollah or a Hezbollah sympathizer. There are a few problems with that: 1. How are all of the elderly and sick supposed to leave with transportation avenues destroyed? 2. If even half of the 1.8 million people have been driven from their homes, Israel has just caused one of the worst huminitarian crises in since WWII, driving that many people from their homes 3. Those who have weathered the civil war in Beirut are very unlikely to leave, if they have any choise.
Now, people in Lebanon have sent rockets against Israel, but those rockets were AFTER Israels invasion, though I've only heard one newscaster clarify that. This whole thing was started when HA killed 5 soldiers and kidnapped two, that was stupid and they had to know that they were dooming Lebanon, that does not excuse Israel from: 1. laying seige to Beirut, including the destruction of sanitation/ water, all major modes of transport 2. blowing up ambulances AFTER they passed Israeli inspection 3. bombing entire neighborhoods where there are innocent people (for proof, consider the bombs that killed the UN observers, or those that struck the home of Bashir's elderly parents), not to say that every person in those neighborhoods is innocent, but even a few are worth greater caution than I've seen any evidence that they have taken.
Now, lets talk about Israel's decision making abilities: Israel chose to bomb Beirut for 5 deaths caused by HA (Hezbollah) and two kidnappings. HA is NOT financed by Lebanon, but by Iran and Syria. Syria is one of Lebanon's worst enemies, having occupied their country for a very long time. HA said that they wanted to trade for Lebanese that are still being held by Israel, who holds many more (without trial) than the two taken by HA. Israel, by staging this war against Lebanon, has united nearly all the Lebanese factions against her, while before, most Lebanese were extremely divided. In fact, there was a much greater chance that people in Lebanon would oppose war with Israel than in any other nation, given the relatively low population of Muslims from which to draw fanitics, and the exhaustion caused by the last war.
Therefore, I believe the stories and pictures from Lebanon reflect the reality, and I believe that the deaths of reporters and UN observers confirms those pictures: Israel may be bombing neighborhoods they belive hold HA, but are killing whoever lives there, sick, elderly, young, or simply innocent. I also believe that pursuing this in this manner was one of the dumbest things they could have done, polarizing the country most likely to stay out of a war with them (except perhaps Turkey) against them.
Finally, it seems to me that no one could come up with a better way to cause turmoil if they had actually planned it. If I were even a hair more eccentric, I would believe that this was planned to end in a powerplay by someone who is now hiding in the shadows. As it is, this mearely confirms my belief that there really is a Satan out there scheming for evil.
I don't know how anyone can make the claim that Israel is not going after everyone, at least in Beirut, as the so-called strateigic attacks first destroyed the ability of the ordinary citizens their to flee (airport/ roads/ transportation systems)and then targeted entire neighborhoods, and then I hear from BBC that Haim Ramon is saying that everyone left is Hezbollah or a Hezbollah sympathizer. There are a few problems with that: 1. How are all of the elderly and sick supposed to leave with transportation avenues destroyed? 2. If even half of the 1.8 million people have been driven from their homes, Israel has just caused one of the worst huminitarian crises in since WWII, driving that many people from their homes 3. Those who have weathered the civil war in Beirut are very unlikely to leave, if they have any choise.
Now, people in Lebanon have sent rockets against Israel, but those rockets were AFTER Israels invasion, though I've only heard one newscaster clarify that. This whole thing was started when HA killed 5 soldiers and kidnapped two, that was stupid and they had to know that they were dooming Lebanon, that does not excuse Israel from: 1. laying seige to Beirut, including the destruction of sanitation/ water, all major modes of transport 2. blowing up ambulances AFTER they passed Israeli inspection 3. bombing entire neighborhoods where there are innocent people (for proof, consider the bombs that killed the UN observers, or those that struck the home of Bashir's elderly parents), not to say that every person in those neighborhoods is innocent, but even a few are worth greater caution than I've seen any evidence that they have taken.
Now, lets talk about Israel's decision making abilities: Israel chose to bomb Beirut for 5 deaths caused by HA (Hezbollah) and two kidnappings. HA is NOT financed by Lebanon, but by Iran and Syria. Syria is one of Lebanon's worst enemies, having occupied their country for a very long time. HA said that they wanted to trade for Lebanese that are still being held by Israel, who holds many more (without trial) than the two taken by HA. Israel, by staging this war against Lebanon, has united nearly all the Lebanese factions against her, while before, most Lebanese were extremely divided. In fact, there was a much greater chance that people in Lebanon would oppose war with Israel than in any other nation, given the relatively low population of Muslims from which to draw fanitics, and the exhaustion caused by the last war.
Therefore, I believe the stories and pictures from Lebanon reflect the reality, and I believe that the deaths of reporters and UN observers confirms those pictures: Israel may be bombing neighborhoods they belive hold HA, but are killing whoever lives there, sick, elderly, young, or simply innocent. I also believe that pursuing this in this manner was one of the dumbest things they could have done, polarizing the country most likely to stay out of a war with them (except perhaps Turkey) against them.
Finally, it seems to me that no one could come up with a better way to cause turmoil if they had actually planned it. If I were even a hair more eccentric, I would believe that this was planned to end in a powerplay by someone who is now hiding in the shadows. As it is, this mearely confirms my belief that there really is a Satan out there scheming for evil.
I don’t have cable or satellite. I listen to the network news, and the 700 Club news. I do not endorse the 700 Club in any other area, but I have been surprised to find that their news coverage is quite credible because they back up what they say. They even try to give both sides, which I appreciate greatly after years of the networks’ one sided approach.
I also read the newspaper, and I have been doing that for the last 20 years.
I’m also a student of history. To the best of my intellectual ability, I try to weigh all that I hear in light of what I already know historically in order to interpret what I hear. Before I stand on one side or the other, I want to know I am being responsible in what I say. I hope you can respect that. If you can’t, I really am wasting a lot of time.
That said, I’d like to tell you a true story that you are probably familiar with. (I will skip most of the details because I believe you know them better than I do.)
When Rome set out to conquer the world, somewhere in the Middle East many Jews sought safety at a stronghold called Masada. But this was war, and the Romans won, anyway. Do you remember how? The Romans knew their enemy. They knew that Jews do not like to kill innocent people, especially other Jews.
So the Romans brought in some innocent Jews and made them build a ramp up to Masada. They knew those Jews would complete the ramp, because those in Masada would not kill them in order to stop them.
I also read the newspaper, and I have been doing that for the last 20 years.
I’m also a student of history. To the best of my intellectual ability, I try to weigh all that I hear in light of what I already know historically in order to interpret what I hear. Before I stand on one side or the other, I want to know I am being responsible in what I say. I hope you can respect that. If you can’t, I really am wasting a lot of time.
That said, I’d like to tell you a true story that you are probably familiar with. (I will skip most of the details because I believe you know them better than I do.)
When Rome set out to conquer the world, somewhere in the Middle East many Jews sought safety at a stronghold called Masada. But this was war, and the Romans won, anyway. Do you remember how? The Romans knew their enemy. They knew that Jews do not like to kill innocent people, especially other Jews.
So the Romans brought in some innocent Jews and made them build a ramp up to Masada. They knew those Jews would complete the ramp, because those in Masada would not kill them in order to stop them.
# posted by : 7/29/2006 5:52 PM
: 7/29/2006 5:52 PM
(The story continues:)
Well, the ramp builders finished the ramp for the Roman Army, but the Romans were not finished with the ramp builders. They forced those innocent Jews to go ahead of them up the ramp, and the Masada Jews let them come in without killing any of them. Thus the Romans were able to enter and destroy. No more Masada, no more ramp builders; just the senseless killing of innocents.
Years later, the enemies of the Jews would remember this tactic and employ it. I will explain how later.
I plan to post as I go along, so that I don't lose what I've written like I did before.
I do hope you will listen, Ty. From what you have written on your blogs it is obvious that you are highly intelligent, you care about people, and your heart is very tender.
What I am writing won't change your life, I know. But I hope it may help your views to have a clearer focus. I hope so.
The world would do well to have more people like you, from all I can tell. Even if your nerd claims turn out to be true.
Later
Well, the ramp builders finished the ramp for the Roman Army, but the Romans were not finished with the ramp builders. They forced those innocent Jews to go ahead of them up the ramp, and the Masada Jews let them come in without killing any of them. Thus the Romans were able to enter and destroy. No more Masada, no more ramp builders; just the senseless killing of innocents.
Years later, the enemies of the Jews would remember this tactic and employ it. I will explain how later.
I plan to post as I go along, so that I don't lose what I've written like I did before.
I do hope you will listen, Ty. From what you have written on your blogs it is obvious that you are highly intelligent, you care about people, and your heart is very tender.
What I am writing won't change your life, I know. But I hope it may help your views to have a clearer focus. I hope so.
The world would do well to have more people like you, from all I can tell. Even if your nerd claims turn out to be true.
Later
# posted by : 7/29/2006 6:04 PM
: 7/29/2006 6:04 PM
You wonder how people can believe that Israel is not going after “everyone” in Lebanon. I wonder how you can say they want the innocent to die. Are you so bound by your anger over innocents dying that you have forgotten to use your accumulated knowledge and obvious brain power to think this out?
You usually display exceptional logic, especially in your more serious blogs. I learn from you. I have come to have faith in you. Consider what I say, please, and don’t let me down.
You obviously, like me, have a Judeo-Christian background. Our culture is far different from that of Hezbollah and Hamas, who are terrorists. We revere life; we treasure the soul of every human knowing that each one was created by God and has an eternal soul. Our culture abhors the senseless loss of innocent lives. We do not reward it, monetarily, with promises of 72 virgins, or in any other way. Our culture aligns with Israel’s in this way. Think about it.
This time I have a bit of Middle East recent history to relate.
Israel, as you know, is situated right in the middle of countries who would rather they didn’t exist. The region seems to be at war all the time, and some believe this fulfills Biblical prophecy.
Because of this, the living conditions in Israel have never been easy. Since Hezbollah set up in neighbor Lebanon, and since Hamas moved into neighboring Palestine’s Gaza Strip, living conditions have steadily worsened. Normal innocent people know they are risking their lives by simply going for a walk in their neighborhood.
I’ll be back.
You usually display exceptional logic, especially in your more serious blogs. I learn from you. I have come to have faith in you. Consider what I say, please, and don’t let me down.
You obviously, like me, have a Judeo-Christian background. Our culture is far different from that of Hezbollah and Hamas, who are terrorists. We revere life; we treasure the soul of every human knowing that each one was created by God and has an eternal soul. Our culture abhors the senseless loss of innocent lives. We do not reward it, monetarily, with promises of 72 virgins, or in any other way. Our culture aligns with Israel’s in this way. Think about it.
This time I have a bit of Middle East recent history to relate.
Israel, as you know, is situated right in the middle of countries who would rather they didn’t exist. The region seems to be at war all the time, and some believe this fulfills Biblical prophecy.
Because of this, the living conditions in Israel have never been easy. Since Hezbollah set up in neighbor Lebanon, and since Hamas moved into neighboring Palestine’s Gaza Strip, living conditions have steadily worsened. Normal innocent people know they are risking their lives by simply going for a walk in their neighborhood.
I’ll be back.
# posted by : 7/29/2006 7:24 PM
: 7/29/2006 7:24 PM
OK. Let me side-track here for a bit.
You pointed out that Lebanon’s government is very weak and has many factions. Well, one of those factions IS Hezbollah.
Here’s some more history.
Hezbollah itself is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. They were sent by Iran to implement the Holy War against Israel. I think you probably know how humanitarian Iran’s culture is.
When they got to Lebanon, the first thing they did was to don some quite effective sheep’s clothing. They built hospitals (launch sites) and other things (launch sites) that helped the people of Lebanon.
Their pseudo humanitarian facade helped the people of Lebanon ignore the fact that they were terrorists, and so when they voted, they elected at least some Hezbollah to fill positions in their government. I don't know how many there are, but even one terrorist is too many for ANY government.
If Hezbollah should ever gain full power, history would repeat itself and anti-Semitic genocide would reign once again. It would be Hitler one more time around again.
Claims from Lebanon that they don’t want Hezbollah there, that they didn’t realize it would go this far, sound very similar to Germany’s excuses after the Holocaust.
Germany chose to be apathetic to the point that they sat on their hands and watched while their Jewish friends and neighbors were arrested, shipped off and murdered. They let their sons become soldiers and die for a lunatic’s cause. If they had started out checking Hitler’s power from the beginning, they would have been strong enough to stop him.
Forget Lebanon’s claims to hate Hezbollah. Israel dropped thousands of leaflets over Lebanon before they attacked Hezbollah. If Lebanon hated Hezbollah and their terrorist mission, they would have joined Israel in the attack on Hezbollah and driven Hezbollah back to Iran. Israel has made no secret of their viewpoint. If you befriend terrorists, you become the enemy, too.
Yet even though that is their stand, they are not attacking indiscrimanently like terrorists. (More about that at a later date.)
I’m sorry, but the number of Lebanese in Israeli custody has nothing to do with anything. Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers for TERRORIST purposes, and they knew it would start a war.
Okay, so Hezbollah says they just wanted to trade them for prisoners. Since when has the word of a terrorist been credible? There is no honesty in terrorism, only senseless hateful slaughter of innocent people and whatever lies and subterfuge it takes for them to arrange to kill the largest number of innocent people possible.
When anybody complains about the big bully United States or Israel, or ANY country for trying to protect their own and/or the world from terrorists, I find myself wanting to take a page out of Texas history. I want to shout over and over again. “REMEMBER 911!” and “REMEMEMBER THE WORLD TRADE CENTER!”and "REMEMBER OKLAHOMA CITY!"
I want people to shout it from the rooftops, to write it on signs in their front yards. I want them to fly the flag and put bumper stickers on their cards that say, “TO HELL WITH POLITICS! KILL TERRORISTS!”
Yes, I get emotional, too. And I’m really tired of listening to people who repeat the propaganda that our media THRIVES on.
Maybe that’s why I keep posting here.
You seem different. You have a brain in your head.
I don’t see you getting apathetic; your heart would never let you.
I’ll come back later;I've left a lot of loose ends so far.
Pray for ALL the innocent.
You pointed out that Lebanon’s government is very weak and has many factions. Well, one of those factions IS Hezbollah.
Here’s some more history.
Hezbollah itself is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. They were sent by Iran to implement the Holy War against Israel. I think you probably know how humanitarian Iran’s culture is.
When they got to Lebanon, the first thing they did was to don some quite effective sheep’s clothing. They built hospitals (launch sites) and other things (launch sites) that helped the people of Lebanon.
Their pseudo humanitarian facade helped the people of Lebanon ignore the fact that they were terrorists, and so when they voted, they elected at least some Hezbollah to fill positions in their government. I don't know how many there are, but even one terrorist is too many for ANY government.
If Hezbollah should ever gain full power, history would repeat itself and anti-Semitic genocide would reign once again. It would be Hitler one more time around again.
Claims from Lebanon that they don’t want Hezbollah there, that they didn’t realize it would go this far, sound very similar to Germany’s excuses after the Holocaust.
Germany chose to be apathetic to the point that they sat on their hands and watched while their Jewish friends and neighbors were arrested, shipped off and murdered. They let their sons become soldiers and die for a lunatic’s cause. If they had started out checking Hitler’s power from the beginning, they would have been strong enough to stop him.
Forget Lebanon’s claims to hate Hezbollah. Israel dropped thousands of leaflets over Lebanon before they attacked Hezbollah. If Lebanon hated Hezbollah and their terrorist mission, they would have joined Israel in the attack on Hezbollah and driven Hezbollah back to Iran. Israel has made no secret of their viewpoint. If you befriend terrorists, you become the enemy, too.
Yet even though that is their stand, they are not attacking indiscrimanently like terrorists. (More about that at a later date.)
I’m sorry, but the number of Lebanese in Israeli custody has nothing to do with anything. Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers for TERRORIST purposes, and they knew it would start a war.
Okay, so Hezbollah says they just wanted to trade them for prisoners. Since when has the word of a terrorist been credible? There is no honesty in terrorism, only senseless hateful slaughter of innocent people and whatever lies and subterfuge it takes for them to arrange to kill the largest number of innocent people possible.
When anybody complains about the big bully United States or Israel, or ANY country for trying to protect their own and/or the world from terrorists, I find myself wanting to take a page out of Texas history. I want to shout over and over again. “REMEMBER 911!” and “REMEMEMBER THE WORLD TRADE CENTER!”and "REMEMBER OKLAHOMA CITY!"
I want people to shout it from the rooftops, to write it on signs in their front yards. I want them to fly the flag and put bumper stickers on their cards that say, “TO HELL WITH POLITICS! KILL TERRORISTS!”
Yes, I get emotional, too. And I’m really tired of listening to people who repeat the propaganda that our media THRIVES on.
Maybe that’s why I keep posting here.
You seem different. You have a brain in your head.
I don’t see you getting apathetic; your heart would never let you.
I’ll come back later;I've left a lot of loose ends so far.
Pray for ALL the innocent.
# posted by : 7/29/2006 8:51 PM
: 7/29/2006 8:51 PM
Actually, it seems that we aren't too far apart in most of this. Your historical sketches sound very familiar, and I referenced the nature of HA's rise to power myself.
For the most part, I even agree about Israel: they are the only country in the Middle East that consistently treats women as people (albeit, Palestinians receive no such courtesy, but I think I understand that too, though I think that the level of . . . mistreatment could be lowered and still preserve the peace). Beyond those considerations, they are there because of international actions, and though we may question the wisdom of those actions, since Israel is not the source of its own origin, it is ridiculous to blame Israel for its own existence, or to punish Israel for it's own existence.
Practically, even if one were to accept that Israel has no "right" to exist, and had the means to remove it from the region, such a change in the balance of power would be very unlikely to have positive results for the region or the world.
Here's the deal though, I think that the origin of HA's rise to power proves that fewer Lebanese actually sympathize with HA than the "numbers" indicate. To me, that means that Israel should be even more cautious with their retaliation, but the contrary seems to be true. It seems (cf. the destruction of the infrastructure of Beirut) that Israel is enacting group punishment, and that 1. puts innocents into the line of fire and 2. it engenders hatred and makes enemies out of both friends and the undecided who are caught in the indiscriminate punishment.
Additionally, the Masada story is applicable to many situations in the Middle East, I have one major problem with it in this case. The Jews in Masada had no method of attacking the Romans without killing the innocent Jews too, but, as I have said before, Israelis (and many others) have claimed that Mossad and the other covert Israeli forces are among the best in the world, but as yet there is no evidence that these groups even attempted to target HA or its leaders specifically. To me, this constitutes lack of due diligence to avoid non-HA casualties. Even in the best of situations, casualties may occur among innocent bystanders, but that is no excuse for not making a serious attempt to limit such casualties.
Maybe I am wrong, maybe Israel did use Mossad and others to identify members of HA, if so, Israel, as evidenced by the deaths of UN observers etc., evidently failed to accurately target these groups with their strikes. If that is the case, the people charged with such targeting are culpable for their own mistakes and those responsible for those mistakes should face serious consequences for their failures, since those failures were both a matter of life-and-death and a matter of international reputation, not to mention the possibility that such failings might damage the reputation of the Israeli military.
That said, I definitely agree with Israel's decision to pursue those responsible, but I think that your point, that HA knew Israel would do something like this, indicates that Israel easily fell into HA's plan. It is never a good idea to let your opponent control your actions, that is basic military doctrine from Sun Tzu to the present.
So, let us review this situation: HA is controlled by elements outside Lebanon, let's simplify and say Syria. HA gains power in Lebanon, but holds a relatively weak place in a relatively weak government. HA draws Israel in to attack Beirut. Logically then it amounts to Syria luring Israel to attack Beirut. Should Israel have taken the bait and been drawn in to attack Beirut? Is that a wise choice? (Most of the time in this discussion, the things that I am saying echo the sentiments of a certain element of the population, but I'm going to offend most of those people right here) Speaking from a tactical standpoint, if Israel was going to properly deal with this luring tactic, they should have attacked Syria (one of Lebanon's worst enemies) instead of taking the "easy" bait. If that had happened, a different set of ethical rules governs attacking targets in a country where the government, including the standing army, have initiated hostility by an act of aggression(a point for debate, but more firmly grounded here than in Lebanon), in this case the provision of funds to HA, evidence of which many news agencies have referenced and which seems to be undisputed.
As it stands, Israel is preparing Lebanon for a new Syrian occupation, a situation that looks much worse for Israel than the situation before the bombing of Beirut. The other option is an Israeli occupation of Lebanon, and I doubt that Israel is prepared to deal with the logistics of such an occupation, to face the implications of such an action for their own sovereignty, or to deal with the consequences in the international community.
In short, the decisions that Israel has made to this point are irresponsible in reference to Lebanese non-combatants, and not good for the continued welfare of Israel, especially from a military perspective, but also from the perspective of international political relations.
For the most part, I even agree about Israel: they are the only country in the Middle East that consistently treats women as people (albeit, Palestinians receive no such courtesy, but I think I understand that too, though I think that the level of . . . mistreatment could be lowered and still preserve the peace). Beyond those considerations, they are there because of international actions, and though we may question the wisdom of those actions, since Israel is not the source of its own origin, it is ridiculous to blame Israel for its own existence, or to punish Israel for it's own existence.
Practically, even if one were to accept that Israel has no "right" to exist, and had the means to remove it from the region, such a change in the balance of power would be very unlikely to have positive results for the region or the world.
Here's the deal though, I think that the origin of HA's rise to power proves that fewer Lebanese actually sympathize with HA than the "numbers" indicate. To me, that means that Israel should be even more cautious with their retaliation, but the contrary seems to be true. It seems (cf. the destruction of the infrastructure of Beirut) that Israel is enacting group punishment, and that 1. puts innocents into the line of fire and 2. it engenders hatred and makes enemies out of both friends and the undecided who are caught in the indiscriminate punishment.
Additionally, the Masada story is applicable to many situations in the Middle East, I have one major problem with it in this case. The Jews in Masada had no method of attacking the Romans without killing the innocent Jews too, but, as I have said before, Israelis (and many others) have claimed that Mossad and the other covert Israeli forces are among the best in the world, but as yet there is no evidence that these groups even attempted to target HA or its leaders specifically. To me, this constitutes lack of due diligence to avoid non-HA casualties. Even in the best of situations, casualties may occur among innocent bystanders, but that is no excuse for not making a serious attempt to limit such casualties.
Maybe I am wrong, maybe Israel did use Mossad and others to identify members of HA, if so, Israel, as evidenced by the deaths of UN observers etc., evidently failed to accurately target these groups with their strikes. If that is the case, the people charged with such targeting are culpable for their own mistakes and those responsible for those mistakes should face serious consequences for their failures, since those failures were both a matter of life-and-death and a matter of international reputation, not to mention the possibility that such failings might damage the reputation of the Israeli military.
That said, I definitely agree with Israel's decision to pursue those responsible, but I think that your point, that HA knew Israel would do something like this, indicates that Israel easily fell into HA's plan. It is never a good idea to let your opponent control your actions, that is basic military doctrine from Sun Tzu to the present.
So, let us review this situation: HA is controlled by elements outside Lebanon, let's simplify and say Syria. HA gains power in Lebanon, but holds a relatively weak place in a relatively weak government. HA draws Israel in to attack Beirut. Logically then it amounts to Syria luring Israel to attack Beirut. Should Israel have taken the bait and been drawn in to attack Beirut? Is that a wise choice? (Most of the time in this discussion, the things that I am saying echo the sentiments of a certain element of the population, but I'm going to offend most of those people right here) Speaking from a tactical standpoint, if Israel was going to properly deal with this luring tactic, they should have attacked Syria (one of Lebanon's worst enemies) instead of taking the "easy" bait. If that had happened, a different set of ethical rules governs attacking targets in a country where the government, including the standing army, have initiated hostility by an act of aggression(a point for debate, but more firmly grounded here than in Lebanon), in this case the provision of funds to HA, evidence of which many news agencies have referenced and which seems to be undisputed.
As it stands, Israel is preparing Lebanon for a new Syrian occupation, a situation that looks much worse for Israel than the situation before the bombing of Beirut. The other option is an Israeli occupation of Lebanon, and I doubt that Israel is prepared to deal with the logistics of such an occupation, to face the implications of such an action for their own sovereignty, or to deal with the consequences in the international community.
In short, the decisions that Israel has made to this point are irresponsible in reference to Lebanese non-combatants, and not good for the continued welfare of Israel, especially from a military perspective, but also from the perspective of international political relations.
Don't have time to talk now, or even to read yours thoroughly.
Out of context with my other writing, let me just comment quickly, and I'll explain in my continuing conversation.
I don't think you're wrong about this being a power play. The instigation is clearly Iraq. (It certainly will not help Israel.)
It's brilliant. They sit at a distance keeping their hands clean while pushing the buttons. (And in the midst of the chaos, they add to it by declaring their intention to join the Neuclear Weapon Club.)
IRAQ through HEZBOLLAH is preparing Lebanon for the new Syrian take over you describe.
To begin with, Hezbollah targeted the govt. of Lebanon, helping to weaken it by dividing it. A house divided, like Lincoln said.
They know that an ineffictive government is of very little value.
The payoff: Iran looks like an innocent bystander while ridding the area of the only democratic state in the Middle East, and they way they're doing it leaves Israel looking like the bully. All the while, Israel is being set up in a more strategically dangerous position.
And they WILL take advantage of that.
I don't believe for a minute that the kidnapping and onset of rockets was an impulsive act. It was calculated to do exactly what it has done. Most of the media coverage us aiding and abetting, making this the public opinon victory Iran wanted. Granted, the media is condemning Israel in a back-handed manner usually; it's adept at manipulating the emotions of the public--it's how they keep their audience, thus sponsors.
More to come. But much later.
Out of context with my other writing, let me just comment quickly, and I'll explain in my continuing conversation.
I don't think you're wrong about this being a power play. The instigation is clearly Iraq. (It certainly will not help Israel.)
It's brilliant. They sit at a distance keeping their hands clean while pushing the buttons. (And in the midst of the chaos, they add to it by declaring their intention to join the Neuclear Weapon Club.)
IRAQ through HEZBOLLAH is preparing Lebanon for the new Syrian take over you describe.
To begin with, Hezbollah targeted the govt. of Lebanon, helping to weaken it by dividing it. A house divided, like Lincoln said.
They know that an ineffictive government is of very little value.
The payoff: Iran looks like an innocent bystander while ridding the area of the only democratic state in the Middle East, and they way they're doing it leaves Israel looking like the bully. All the while, Israel is being set up in a more strategically dangerous position.
And they WILL take advantage of that.
I don't believe for a minute that the kidnapping and onset of rockets was an impulsive act. It was calculated to do exactly what it has done. Most of the media coverage us aiding and abetting, making this the public opinon victory Iran wanted. Granted, the media is condemning Israel in a back-handed manner usually; it's adept at manipulating the emotions of the public--it's how they keep their audience, thus sponsors.
More to come. But much later.
# posted by : 7/31/2006 11:08 AM
: 7/31/2006 11:08 AM
You cited the death of the UN observers in Lebanon as proof that Israel’s smart bombs are not accurate.
The fact is that those observers were standing less than 50 feet from a Hezbollah launch site.
I think that says something about the UN’s objectivity in this situation, but it also sounds pretty darn accurate to me.
The war that Hezbollah/Iran/Syria hoped for is now raging. I’ve lost heart to continue this line of conversation with you, but there are still a few things to be said.
First, as evidence of Hezbollah’s intentions in Lebanon, I send you the following:
The fact is that those observers were standing less than 50 feet from a Hezbollah launch site.
I think that says something about the UN’s objectivity in this situation, but it also sounds pretty darn accurate to me.
The war that Hezbollah/Iran/Syria hoped for is now raging. I’ve lost heart to continue this line of conversation with you, but there are still a few things to be said.
First, as evidence of Hezbollah’s intentions in Lebanon, I send you the following:
# posted by : 8/10/2006 6:48 PM
: 8/10/2006 6:48 PM
In a 7/30/06 letter to the editor of the Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel a Lebanese Shia explains how after Israel’s withdrawal from South Lebanon, Hezbollah stored rockets in bunkers in his town and built a school and residence over it.
"I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajun that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have the say in our town and all other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters, they appeared armed to the teeth and dug rocket depots in bunkers in our town as well.
The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers!
A local sheikh explained to me Laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians.
These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda.
As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.""
Dr. Mounir Herzallah, Berlin
(translated from the German by David Ouellette)
"I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajun that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to have the say in our town and all other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters, they appeared armed to the teeth and dug rocket depots in bunkers in our town as well.
The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers!
A local sheikh explained to me Laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rocket depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians.
These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda.
As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.""
Dr. Mounir Herzallah, Berlin
(translated from the German by David Ouellette)
# posted by : 8/10/2006 6:52 PM
: 8/10/2006 6:52 PM
Israel pulled out of Lebanon because the UN promised to monitor and make sure nothing was done or built that might endanger Israel's well-being. But like those UN observers who were killed, they just stood by and watched.
Hezbollah had six years to freely set up for this war. It was not accomplished in secret.
But oh, no! Israel is the big bully. Right.
If you still believe the media coverage slants toward the Israeli side, you must not be watching ABC, CBS, or NBC. So many left-leaning American people are insatiable about hearing how horrible their own government is. Knowing that these people are also sponsors, they are catered to by the networks.
America allies with Israel and the media is intent on making Israel look just as guilty as Hezbollah had hoped for.
They picked up Reuters video coverage that we now know was tampered with, making Israeli attacks look far more severe than they really were.
I find this very sad.
Hezbollah had six years to freely set up for this war. It was not accomplished in secret.
But oh, no! Israel is the big bully. Right.
If you still believe the media coverage slants toward the Israeli side, you must not be watching ABC, CBS, or NBC. So many left-leaning American people are insatiable about hearing how horrible their own government is. Knowing that these people are also sponsors, they are catered to by the networks.
America allies with Israel and the media is intent on making Israel look just as guilty as Hezbollah had hoped for.
They picked up Reuters video coverage that we now know was tampered with, making Israeli attacks look far more severe than they really were.
I find this very sad.
# posted by : 8/10/2006 7:11 PM
: 8/10/2006 7:11 PM
Okay, so Israel fell into Hezbollah's war plan. They were supposed to just sit there and let Hezbollah start pelting them with rockets designed to target the innocent.
Hezbollah did not set up so many launch sites just to contribute to the aesthetic atmosphere of Lebanon. Israel had to know about the danger since they have such a good intelligence network.
They were supposed to sit there like the targets they had become and wait for the rockets to be launched against them. They were supposed to wait, then go on the defensive because we all know that's the way to win. Right.
All Israel is supposed to do is do no more than what was done against them; this way they will always be the target for terrorism.
Or maybe they could just let the UN take care of them; after all, the UN has protected them from Hezbollah so dilligently and effectively during the last six years.
Crying foul against Israel may be popular, but it is not one supported by the facts of this situation.
You are an intelligent person. I hope you are no longer ready to condemn Israel outright for protecting its people.
I do hope my time and my words have not been wasted.
Pray for innocent people everywhere.
Goodbye
Hezbollah did not set up so many launch sites just to contribute to the aesthetic atmosphere of Lebanon. Israel had to know about the danger since they have such a good intelligence network.
They were supposed to sit there like the targets they had become and wait for the rockets to be launched against them. They were supposed to wait, then go on the defensive because we all know that's the way to win. Right.
All Israel is supposed to do is do no more than what was done against them; this way they will always be the target for terrorism.
Or maybe they could just let the UN take care of them; after all, the UN has protected them from Hezbollah so dilligently and effectively during the last six years.
Crying foul against Israel may be popular, but it is not one supported by the facts of this situation.
You are an intelligent person. I hope you are no longer ready to condemn Israel outright for protecting its people.
I do hope my time and my words have not been wasted.
Pray for innocent people everywhere.
Goodbye
# posted by : 8/10/2006 7:51 PM
: 8/10/2006 7:51 PM
CORRECTION! I don't know what my fingers were thinking.
THE POWER BEHIND HEZBOLLAH IS IRAN, NOT Iraq.
Hezbollah originated in Iran, and we know just how Iran feels about Israel and about us.
Since there have been no comments, I assume you've not come back to read the rest of what I said.
THE POWER BEHIND HEZBOLLAH IS IRAN, NOT Iraq.
Hezbollah originated in Iran, and we know just how Iran feels about Israel and about us.
Since there have been no comments, I assume you've not come back to read the rest of what I said.
# posted by : 8/30/2006 1:39 PM
: 8/30/2006 1:39 PM
I do not understand why I come back to comment now, but I feel that if anyone has taken time to read this, I want to give a very simplified summary of my position. It is not my own, but it says it more clearly than anything I've seen before.
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.
If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.
# posted by : 9/19/2006 6:54 PM
: 9/19/2006 6:54 PM
Well Anon, I agree with you, and I think I've made that clear, that Israel should have done something, I just think that the action that they took 1. was not aimed specifically enough, and was, therefore, irresponsible; 2. looks bad for them in the international community; 3. plays right into the hands of HA and the other radical Islamic groups; and 4. leaves the door open for Syria or Iran to take over Lebanon and make life even worse for both the Lebanese citizens and for Israel. I think Israel was played and that they gave HA and Iran/ Syria what they wanted, always a bad tactic.
As far as I can see, you are only adequately answering the question of Israel retaliating, a point which I conceded early on. You made one comment on the accuracy of Israel's response, saying that the UN team hit by Israeli rockets proves the accuracy of the attack, since they were next-door, but I have already stated that not only do I believe that Israel should have assassinated all those responsible, but that I believe them to have the resources to do just that without using inconsistent and inaccurate weapons, such as rockets. I believe that killing innocent people is bad policy, in addition to being murder.
Don’t ever think that HA or Iran or Syria or all of them together didn’t plan this. Reading about the military and political manipulation that has characterized the Middle East, I have come to the conclusion that, despite western preconceptions, those in political power in the Middle East are, more often than not, masters of manipulation, playing a giant game of Chess, with civilians as their pawns, and thinking eight moves ahead. In this case, when I try to imagine eight moves from the retaliation strike, I always end up with a weaker Israel and a Lebanon without freedom.
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As far as I can see, you are only adequately answering the question of Israel retaliating, a point which I conceded early on. You made one comment on the accuracy of Israel's response, saying that the UN team hit by Israeli rockets proves the accuracy of the attack, since they were next-door, but I have already stated that not only do I believe that Israel should have assassinated all those responsible, but that I believe them to have the resources to do just that without using inconsistent and inaccurate weapons, such as rockets. I believe that killing innocent people is bad policy, in addition to being murder.
Don’t ever think that HA or Iran or Syria or all of them together didn’t plan this. Reading about the military and political manipulation that has characterized the Middle East, I have come to the conclusion that, despite western preconceptions, those in political power in the Middle East are, more often than not, masters of manipulation, playing a giant game of Chess, with civilians as their pawns, and thinking eight moves ahead. In this case, when I try to imagine eight moves from the retaliation strike, I always end up with a weaker Israel and a Lebanon without freedom.
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